APEX Express – 8.1.24 – Continental Shifts Organizing & More

KPFA - APEX Express

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Tonight we present our sister podcast Continental Shifts. Hosts Gabriel and Estella speak with Tavae Samuelu.

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Swati Rayasam: [00:00:35] Good evening, everyone. You’re listening to APEX Express Thursday nights at 7 PM. My name is Swati Rayasam and I’m the special editor for this episode. Tonight, we’re wrapping up the podcast continental shifts created by bi-coastal educators, Gabriel Anthony Tanglao and Estella Owoimaha-Church who embark on a voyage in search of self, culture and the ancestors. Last time we featured the concept’s podcast, Gabe and Estella, talked with union leader and educator Yan Yii about creating culturally relevant classrooms, the importance and emotional toll of teachers being a social safety net for marginalized students, and the ever-growing union presence in education. Tonight. They’re talking to Tavae Samuelu about what it will take to organize across ethnic groups, specifically Pacific Islander and Asian communities, beyond ethnic or national lines. And what future we’re visioning for when the US empire falls. If this is your first touch into the conshifts podcast, I strongly recommend diving into the apex archives on kpfa.org. Backslash programs, backslash apex express to check out the previous episodes. And also to check out the podcast on ConShift’s site at continentalshifts.podbean.com or anywhere podcasts are found. But for now, let’s get to the show.

Tavae Samuelu: [00:02:05] When Toni Morrison talks about Invisible Man and asked this question of like invisible to who? Like, what do I care if whiteness sees me? Also know I come across folks who are like, I say API cause I was taught that that was inclusive. And I was like, I bet you a PI didn’t tell you that [laughs].

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:02:27] What will it take to organize across ethnic groups, specifically Pacific Islander and Asian communities. In this episode, we rap with the amazing Tavae Samuelu to strategize ways we might organize AAPI folks across and beyond ethnic or national lines.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:02:48] What up, what up? Tālofa lava, o lo’u igoa o Estella. My pronouns are she/her/hers, sis, uso.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:02:53] What’s good, family? This is Gabriel, kumusta? Pronouns he/him.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:02:56] Tavae Samuelu is the daughter of a pastor from Leo Lumoenga and a nurse from Salemoa in Samoa as the executive director of Empowering Pacific Islander Communities, she’s a passionate advocate for Pacific Islanders and is committed to liberation for all. Tavae was born, raised, and currently resides on Tongva territory. She credits her time on unceded Ohlone land for her political consciousness. During the pandemic, she has learned that her most important title is Auntie Vae. I had the pleasure of meeting Tavae at the Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance Conference in Vegas a couple of years ago when I sat in on her workshop related to organizing Pacific Islander communities. It was, and I’m sure I’ve told her this by now, one of the first times in my life I have ever felt seen as a Samoan woman. Uso, thank you so much for joining us today. Please go ahead and take a few minutes to further introduce yourself to our listeners.

Tavae Samuelu: [00:03:57] Thank you, Stella. I’ve heard you say that before and it always makes me tear up [laughs]. That’s also probably the most rewarding aspect of this job, of this community work, to be able to hear from people that they feel seen and validated. By, you know, by what we do and what, by what we put out there in the world. As I said, you know, currently residing on Tongva territory, what is momentarily known as Long Beach, California, until we get this land back to who it rightfully belongs to. You know I’m really clear and really intentional in this pro indigenous approach of naming the original stewards of this land because it’s important to me that we know who to return the land to when this empire falls and that we’re really clear, right? Not to just be in solidarity as a performative aspect, but naming our indigenous siblings who continue to exist, who are incredibly resilient and are still the experts on the best way to take care of this land and each other and how to be good relatives.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:05:13] She said, “when the empire fall,” I went [laughs].

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:05:16] When the empire, when the empire falls. When…so.

Tavae Samuelu: [00:05:19] I mean, let me credit to Dakota Camacho, who taught me to say “momentarily known as” I was like, yeah, that is a manifestation, if ever. I like that. I’m gonna, I’m gonna borrow that. Let me also cite Dakota Camacho for that.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:05:33] Tavae I would love to know just a little more about your backstory. What brought you to this work in particular, organizing in the Pacific Island community and spaces.

Tavae Samuelu: [00:05:43] My path was circuitous. I think there are a couple of milestones that are important to be explicit about. I’ve been Pacific Islander my entire life, right? Whatever that means to be born into racism and understand that race is a social construct. And so what it means to be Pacific Islander has also changed every single moment of my life. I would say that the way that I language and articulate my Pacific Islander identity most definitely needs to be credited to black feminist thought and that despite being Pacific Islander my entire life [laughs], it wasn’t really until, you know, I was an undergrad at Cal and an ethnic studies major and introduced to Audre Lorde and bell H=hooks and Angela Davis and especially Kimberlé Crenshaw, right? The person who so often is not credited enough for coining intersectionality. But I want to be really clear, I didn’t understand Pacific Islander until I got language from these black feminist thought leaders. Folks who were so so brilliant about naming what it means to walk around in a world that is both racist and sexist. And then, through an ethnic studies class that was on time on American History, right? I’m a first year Cal and it also meant I went kindergarten through 12th grade not hearing a single thing about Samoans. And had to get to my freshman year of college to see anything about us and having a lot of critical questions about why that is right. And everything leading to one thing or another. I was like, oh, well, there’s not enough of us in higher education. So, well, why aren’t there enough of us in higher education? I know. Brilliant smart, talented Pacific Islanders. So you start getting into like the systemic and institutional barriers around. So there was a lot of critical race theory consumption that happened for me really in gaining an elitist language for things that I experienced my entire life, right? And then after getting black feminist thought, then being able to read about Pacific Islanders through Epeli Hau’ofa and Sia Fiegel and Haunani Kay Trask and so many ancestors and elders who really blazed a trail around things, who became definite, and more recently, Teresia Teaiwa. So I say that, and there’s also a piece of it where I would love to say that there was like this drive that came from this really positive place, but a lot of it was just anger. Like that initial phase of building your political consciousness where you wake up and realize how up is, oh, man like, what can I do? And then sort of moving throughout these other phases of political consciousness building where then I’m like, oh, but there are ways that I participate in the systems that disenfranchise us, but also that internal work and still being there. And so even most of my organizing and like even professional career has actually been in multicultural spaces outside of the Pacific Islander community. And it’s really only with EPIC that I’ve been able to deeply engage in that. And the irony of being called Palangi or the Samoan word for white my entire life and then never feeling Pacific Islander enough and now being charged as the leader of a national Pacific Islander organization that is frequently asked to define PI, so, you know, that is the irony of the universe for me.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:09:07] There was so much, so much there. Our listeners cannot hear me like banging on the table and snapping and, but, again, you are another guest who has affirmed the absolute importance of ethnic studies in our education, in our process, and you are another guest who has affirmed the absolute necessity of black feminist thought, like in all of our upbringing and conscious awareness rising. And like maybe there’s a case study here in season one [laughs] that’s formulating on how we became the educators and organizers that we are. Gabriel, you were a social studies classroom teacher, and then moved into taking on union labor work like heavily, what was some of your motivation or inspiration to make the move from the classroom and step heavy into union labor organizing?

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:10:16] If I’m keeping it 100 percent real, I didn’t want to leave the classroom. I loved the classroom. I still love the classroom. It was the foundation of just my passion in specifically the Bergenfield community, which we’ve talked about in the past episodes has a larger Filipino population. So not only was education, just a pathway to be able to help uplift, engage my people, young folks in my community. But the union organizing space in Bergenfield was also formative in allowing me to engage on a broader scale. So that said, when making the transition out of the classroom, which was a difficult decision, to step into the union organizing space on a statewide level, it was really just with the possibility of being able to support educators on a larger scale and have a broader impact and specifically in my role in professional development, I consider this the only type of full time union work that I would leave the classroom for because it’s the closest to the classroom. And in professional development, I think there’s this old school perception on PD that’s really sit and receive canned PowerPoints. And I feel like this conversation around organizing, there’s actually a really fascinating exploration between facilitation, education, and organizing. They all pull from the similar skill sets, right? Sharing resources, bringing people together in shared learning, collective understanding, trying to figure out how the collective wisdom can allow us to just transform the community spaces, the up society in which we live. All of the things, Tavae set it off so we can do that she established some new rules. But to keep it relatively brief, I would say the professional development role and the opportunity to organize on a larger scale is the only reason that I considered leaving the classroom.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:12:30] I know you, you touched on this already, but I’ll go ahead and ask it and I’ll ask both of you and I’ll toss it to Tavae first. In what ways does your culture and your identity inform the work or vice versa?

Tavae Samuelu: [00:12:46] I think that it always has. There was a point at which I thought I needed to come to EPIC and sometimes that’s still true. That I needed to come to EPIC in order to give primacy to my Pacific Islander identity, I had spoken earlier about most of my professional career and even like, as a student organizing was done in multicultural spaces that were, you know, in, in this sort of umbrella way identified as black and brown. But they weren’t spaces where I was PI, I was like, you know, most often a woman of color, more broadly, a person of color, but there was never really an understanding of Pacific Islander. Whether people knew it or not, everything I was doing was in a very Pacific Islander way. From the way I speak to things that people would have identified as very humble. I was like, oh, that’s just how PIs do it, right? That there’s a protocol to things. The deference to elders, the, I love my best friends says, all I do is quote people [laughs]. But there’s this part to me where it’s like, everybody quotes people I just cite my sources. But there’s a part to it too where even citing your sources is very Pacific Islander in that you are naming the genealogy of something, of a thought, of a practice, of a story, right? That you are always going back to the roots of where you came from and that conclusion. And also like a lot of ways where things that I was recognized for was in storytelling. It’s like, oh, that’s a really good. And folks not realizing like, oh, that’s, that comes from me being Pacific Islander. Like that comes from me being Samoan. Not in spite of, but because of it. And so now there’s a lot of ways where the work is defining Pacific Islander. And this other really interesting piece that EPIC does leadership development. That means we work with a lot of young people and the vast majority of our young people are second, third, fourth generation, right? Fairly removed from their indigeneity. And because of that, growing up in diaspora, in particular, growing up in the U. S., that there’s always this thirst for Pacific Islander culture, and that’s what they come to us for but also this notion and kind of this living conversation about what is PI, right? And that we ask them, and then many of them not feeling Pacific Islander enough, like that being the through line. But when you ask, like, what is Pacific Islander, is advocacy Pacific Islander, is education Pacific Islander? And oftentimes hearing from them, really troubling narratives that they’ve internalized about what PI is, and then having to untether and tease out, like, where did you get that from? Where did that story come from? Did it come from PIs? Very often, not, right? That, that what it means to have to constantly interrogate the ways that white supremacy controls how you understand yourself, controls your story, right? And so, you know, what does it mean that to our young people, that being PI means automatically and inherently means being part of the military, because that’s what it means to be a warrior culture. Or that being PI is playing football or that being like that many of the narratives that they had taken to be factual were also grounded in the consumption of their bodies and wanting to trouble that notion. Right? And then also empower them to participate in the creation of a new narrative. So we sort of sit at this place where our work is to both remember culture, spread that remembering, and also watch it evolve and empower our young people to participate in that evolution and feel ownership of it.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:17:05] I’m just gonna have a real moment right now on this episode and just say I wish I had a rewind button right now just to run that back because I’m trying to process some of the knowledge you just dropped and thinking about the ways that our culture and identity inform the ways we show up in spaces, specifically the ways that our perception is grounded through the lens of white supremacy culture and the consumption of our bodies is the way that you framed it, but how do we transform those narratives to be grounded in our own indigenous authentic cultural lens. So just Tavae, thank you for jumping in there. I was thinking about this question in what ways does my culture and identity inform my work? And I’m going to keep it real with you that I’m still exploring that right now. I recognize that the knowledge of self, the knowledge of Filipino history is something that I am becoming more familiar with and drawing more connections with in my adult life. Of course, being Filipino, having the cultural roots be present in my life, but also being a first generation person in a predominantly white suburban area, assimilation is something that is very much the reality for first generation folks. It wasn’t until college, it was an educator, a professor Osei, on the literature of African peoples that started to help spark that critical race consciousness and sent me down a journey to become more race conscious and explore that. So to respond in short, the cultural identity, I’m still exploring that now, but I will say this. that the more that I learn, the more connections that I’m starting to realize. Being that I’m now heavily involved in the union spaces, and that’s been a big part of my journey recently, I’ve come to learn about the farm workers and the Filipino organizers across Hawaii and the West Coast that have been pivotal in American history, labor organizing that I wasn’t aware of. It was actually a moment of pride as I learned about that through APALA so APALA was one of the places where I was educated about this history and I’m realizing a lot of the connections that I’m making in my people, cultural roots.There’s something there that I’m still unpacking right now, still exploring right now, and that’s part of this Continental Shifts podcast. It’s a real time exploration of how our culture and identity inform the ways we show up now. So that’s, that’s how I think about it in this moment.

Tavae Samuelu: [00:19:56] I love that and I think even as you were saying that what comes up for me is a lot of stuff too. That’s also what’s unique about EPIC is because I know our young people everywhere else they go will tell them that culture is a deficit. Right. It’s the thing that you need to put away in order to succeed. And that we’re also really clear of like, well, we are asking them to define success. It’s not about aspiring to whiteness. Right. That I’m not trying to replace American exceptionalism with PI exceptionalism. And this other piece around culture is like, culture is not a costume. But it’s most definitely a uniform for me, right? Like that when I go to the Capitol, if I’m lobbying in Sacramento, if I’m in D. C., I’m wearing my mom’s fulakasi so that everybody can see, right? So to bring her with me as like a physical reminder. But also so my people see me there, right? Like a pulakasi, you wear it for ceremony. You also wear it to do faius or work when you’re in service, right? So if I’m wearing a pulakasi, you know that I’m there for teltua. You know that I’m there to be in service, and that signaling to our young people, and then like the ceremony part of it, right? There’s a sacredness to it. So if I’m in it, you also know, like, that you know what I’m there for. You know I’m about that business if we’re, if we’re in it. And you know, it tells other people, like, yo, this is how much we belong in the capital that I didn’t put on, you know, I didn’t put on some pantsuit or a blazer or whatever the case so that white people will recognize me. I put on a fulakasi so you all could see me. Right? And I think, and I’ve talked to this to a couple of folks about it, right? Like when Toni Morrison talks about Invisible Man and asked this question of like invisible to who? Like, what do I care if whiteness sees me? Like, the first time white people saw us, they decided, like, we were savage and they needed to take our land from us. It’s actually not safe for white people to see me. Like, I just need our folks to see each other, right? And this other piece too, around narratives and story and culture, right? Like, that’s the importance of APALA, of EPIC, of, of Ethnic Studies, is like, it’ll give you the stories white supremacy never wanted you to know about yourself, right? That, like, white supremacy will tell people about the Aloha spirit, and that, like, Kanaka are just so grateful for tourism to have you on their land. It’s like, yo, my favorite stories about Native Hawaiians are when they killed Captain Cook, cause that just like stepped out of line and tried to take too much right.

Like, those are my favorite stories. And so, you know, they’ll tell you about us being warriors to recruit our young people for empire, like, yo, if you’re gonna talk about words, talk about the Polynesian Panthers who stood toe to toe, inspired by the Black Panther Party to surveil the cops who were harassing, deporting and doing all of this up to our community. Or like tell the stories about our healers, right? Big Pharma will copyright things that we’ve been using to treat and heal our people for years so that it’s not accessible on our lands. Like those are the stories where I’m just like, yo, I need all of our folks to know more of this. And I think even to that note Estella and I got to, after that APALA workshop got to reconnect through LE GaFa. And LE GaFa is also really important, like all of these language revitalization programs that are coming up, because even in a Fa’a Samoa or like a Samoan context, the three pillars of identity are land, family, and language, right? And so many of our young people come to us, you know, if you’re in diaspora, that means you, you’re divorced from your land. Many have lost language and then family is complicated. Family is real complicated [laughs]. And so how did we also become that space of redefining Samoa?

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:23:36] Oh, sis. So much has been said, but when you were speaking earlier, I thought back to how I felt when I first met you. And for the first time I was seen by my sister. You know what I mean? Like, I have never been in space with other Samoan women and felt at home until then. And then in thinking about LE GaFa and why I chose to take the class at 30, trying to learn a language is hard at 30, trying to learn Samoan at 30 oof! It is one of the biggest challenges I’ve ever accepted in my life. But every time we are in class, things just feel like they were already in my bones. And I didn’t have a name for it or I didn’t know what it was. So folks are always telling me, Stella, you’re a storyteller. And you know, obviously I’m a theater major. Ended up in storytelling. And it’s definitely a part of my practice as an educator. But like, now I know, well, that was in my bones, that is my lineage, that’s my heritage, that’s my ancestry. From both sides, you know, you know what I mean? I’m Nigerian and Samoan, I get it strong from both sides of who I am. I just love holding on to that thought that all of these things that someone tried to rip away from me, tell me was not okay, they couldn’t because it is deeply innate. It is literally in… in me and it cannot be taken. And so my journey throughout my life to it was just that. It was something that was misplaced and I just had to find it again and I’m happy that I am there and to what Gabriel said earlier, that was definitely a reason why we chose to start this podcast because I can see it on my social media feeds, that there is a thirst, especially among young Samoans, to find out more about what’s going on, I now have so many, oh, Samoan daily words and Samoan proverb, you know what I mean? Like so many folks I’m following and people are also trying to learn the language, I’m meeting and making connection with random Samoan artists on Instagram who now are in the LE GaFa class. And like everyone is now connected through social media. Because all of us, like you said, we are living in diaspora and those three parts of ourselves, we are now having to find. They’re misplaced and we’re in search of them and are lucky and blessed to be able to find each other so that we can rediscover those pieces of ourselves.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:26:09] Tavae, when you were talking about the different stories that aren’t told that should be told, you got me thinking about Lapu Lapu in the Philippine Islands, the chieftain that defeated, Magellan and stemmed off the first wave of colonizers coming through to the Philippines. I didn’t learn about that in my, in my fourth grade class when I had to do a history research project. I learned about Magellan discovering the Philippine islands and that’s not the story. Tell me the story about Gabriela Silang and all of the Filipino revolutionaries. So I was feeling what you were saying earlier. And also, with the deficit narratives that are placed on us, Dr. Tara Yasso, who introduced the Community Cultural Wealth Framework, the idea to challenge the dominant culture’s narrative, the deficit thinking around us, and recognize the value-based, asset-based, capital-based thinking of cultural wealth that we’re bringing to spaces, that’s real.

Swati Rayasam: [00:27:07] You are tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online at kpfa.org.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:27:22] Tavae, I do have a question about your organizing work with EPIC. That’s a dope name, by the way just got to shout that out. But what success have you and EPIC had in organizing across PI communities?

Tavae Samuelu: [00:27:37] Credit for the name goes to Ono Waifale. You know, so EPIC started in 2009 by a group of young Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander leaders, mostly in higher ed, Ono, and a lot of it’s sort of like the seeds of it planted, in the Pacific Islander leadership pipeline. So there’s like a lot of hands that went into building it. Ono Waifale was one of the young people who went through that. And so the name EPIC comes from him. You know, something about the word success gives me trepidation. Like I have a thing about it, and maybe this is also me having a hard time just discerning between, humility and insecurity of like when you call something a success that people come and like want to hold you accountable to that. There are things that I feel good about, things that I feel proud about and. You know, it’s my own recovering perfectionism that has me hesitant about it. That has me like, Oh, if I call that a success, there are so many things that I would have nitpicked about it, that I would done differently. You know, I’m always going to say the young people are my favorite part of this work of EPIC as an organization. On like that Huey P Newton, like, the revolution is always in the hands of young people. There’s also a way that they are the best compass and litmus test, right? In that audacity that young people have of it could be better. And I’m just like, Oh, that’s dope. Like, cause I think there’s also a lot of ways where you know, I’m always an aspiring radical elder and trying to figure out how I can be that radical elder right now. But recognizing, a lot of the markers for adulthood and maturity are about sometimes, like, how much closer you get it to status quo, to like being more served by existing systems. And so there’s a way in which I’m going to age out of this role. And I’m always looking for the young person who’s going to take it on and keep up that mantle of demanding more, right. Of keeping us accountable to that. And so I think it’s always the young people who are like over inspiring and also so brilliant and have so much heart around this and are such a good reminder because there’s also ways in which they’re closer to the problem because of their youth, right? And so because they’re closer to the problem, they have more solutions and they’re also a better way of vetting the viability of something that I might think is so great, but I’m doing all this grass top of what do I know if I’m spending all my time talking to funders and elected officials?

Like, I need the young people who tell me stories about I couldn’t do homework because I had to do files for my mom and my grandma. And then I also had to take care of my little siblings and like, that’s the kind of \ where I’m like, Oh, that’s actually what should be dictating our policy agenda, right? Of like, how young people are thriving in this world, right? Because they’re always going to be the marker of a healthy society, right? And that because they are part of that most vulnerable group, because they inherit so much . And then also the ways that we’re developing young people into adult allies. Like, how are these young people also then looking at themselves of like, oh, let me be that, like, that OG that all the younger folks can come to as well. Like that they’re preparing themselves also to take up the mantle and they feel good about it. Like that they feel ready and maybe if not ready, that they feel supported like, when they take that on, all the adults aren’t going to disappear. And then there’s also like a relativity to it, right? Like, in many spaces, I’m the youngest ED, or I’m the youngest “leader” whatever that means. And so there’s me kind of also feeling young in that way, but then sometimes I’m like, oh, I’m the adult in the room [laughs]. Lamenting that ugh I gotta be the grownup. So I think that piece too is a weird in between that, that I’m in, but like I I think those are the parts of EPIC that feel good. And I think this speaks to the API aspect of this episode and where we’re going to be diving deeper in. It’s always a success to me when I’ve got more accomplices and allies for the Pacific Islander community. Right. When I have more people beyond PI’s that are asking about us, that are fighting for us. Right. And that’s a solidarity and then, you know, this is also an inspiration and something I like feel good about the direction that we’re moving in is being really explicit about our organization being pro black and pro Indigenous and anti racist. Not because it’s trending, because Imma be in this, [laughs] like even after it stops trending, but because it also signals to folks that we’re a safe place to land. That if we say it out loud, you can hold us accountable to it, but you also know that you can come here and talk about and go there with us.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:32:48] What you said about young people, I think, is my favorite part about being a classroom teacher. It is, I think, exactly for that reason. And I can sit and sit and lesson plan, lesson plan, lesson plan, get to class, and kids are like, nah. Now you, that’s corny. You thought it was, you thought it was great, but Miss, let me tell you, but then I love that they feel absolutely comfortable telling me that it’s not as dope as I thought it was [laughs]. And then we, you know, I just let them take over the lesson at that point. What are the critical issues that you foresee us needing to mobilize around? Maybe it’s right now or in the immediate future.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:33:28] Yeah, I guess what’s present for me based on this conversation has me thinking about education, thinking about the stories and the narratives that are out there, and thinking about decolonizing curriculum as a primary frontline issue, but I actually need to shout out Kai, who was one of our guests, that decolonizing curriculum, if we flip that framing to indigenizing curriculum, is perhaps a better approach in terms of how we are more historically and culturally responsive in our approach. Why is that important? I think it’s important to mobilize because I’m starting to recognize that the narratives that are being shared throughout public education in this country really do have a major impact on perpetuating white supremacy culture and continuing the violence that we’re seeing. So, the obvious physical violence, but the forms of emotional violence and trauma that are just part of the mythology of the ways this nation state perpetuates white supremacy, patriarchal culture, capitalist system at large. So, I feel like part of my educator roots always calls me to that. But I think because Tavae and Estella, you’re making sure we’re grounded in understanding the youth perspectives that’s present on my right now as a critical issue. And that’s also going to be now and forever, perhaps, right? Oh wait, no, actually, Tavae, I’m gonna take some learning from what you shared at the beginning. The empire, when it falls, right? We’re preparing for when it falls. So I’ll just, I’ll leave it there.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:35:17] I think right now, like, educators across the nation, an immediate charge is to pass ethnic, like, ethnic studies has to be it everywhere, across the board, preschool to 14, like, mandatory, we’ve got to make sure that ethnic studies, um, so whatever state association across all of our unions. When ethnic studies ends up on your legislative body on the floor, yes on ethnic studies and push it and make sure that, it is what it’s supposed to be and not some watered down, BS where you’ve taken out words like anti blackness and white supremacy. Let’s make sure that. Every child has access to that, and it is what it’s supposed to be because, like you said, I’m not trying to hear about Magellan discovering some he didn’t discover in the first place. I’m trying to learn my whole truth, and it’d be great if I could get it, you know, starting at preschool instead of having to go, like Tavae put it earlier, I had to get that elite language in order to name the stuff. Like, I shouldn’t have to go all the way to Graduate school, undergrad to figure out who the hell I am and then do something with that. So ethnic studies, I think, is the thing that needs to happen like right now.

Tavae Samuelu: [00:36:43] Well, I guess I’m also thinking about this ethnic studies piece too, because I fully support it and I know there’s like a save PI studies coalition full of brilliant, like PI educators, also like very much Manawahine which folks should definitely follow. I think there’s this piece too, where if you’re going to mandate ethnic studies, I also need a pipeline for teachers of color and not just a pipeline, but Right, to support and retain teachers of color. Because there’s this concern that I have too of what does it mean that most teachers are white? Like that’s the other part, right? I was like, oh, white people are, I’ve never met a white person who teaches ethnic studies well. Never. I don’t even know if it’s possible, but you’d have to break yourself to do that, right? And also to think back of, like, the origins of ethnic studies in the 1969, the Third World Liberation Front. What it was created to respond to, the fact that it was also meant to be a college, not a department of, what does it mean to do ethnic studies in biology, right? Like, what does it mean to do ethnic studies as a lens through which we observe everything, right? Because if you have ethnic studies, you actually don’t need US history anymore. Like, if you have ethnic studies, you don’t need European history anymore, because ethnic studies is all of that, right? It’s all of that. It also, you know, I agree, Ethnic studies it taught me a set of values and a way to look at the world and not just stories, right? It made me question all the things of like, what is essentially like the propaganda that our young people receive in formal education spaces [laughs]. And so I say this too, of like, yes, absolutely, all of that, it should be accessible, it should be invested in, it should be from us, there should be a naming of the fact that the US and education systems are, traditional education systems are invested in and fans of revisionist white supremacist history and that there’s simultaneous campaigns that need to happen. And I defer to you all in your expertise and brilliance as educators. Right.

Every issue is a critical issue right now. Everything. You know, especially like COVID-19 and Pacific Islanders, I think in the context of this episode, in this podcast, this conversation, I’m at an impasse with Asian Pacific Islander or API, the terminology as an aggregate has been around since, you know, 1970s ish, and for me, because it’s been around that long, it means that, API spaces and organizations have had since the 1970s to figure it out. So we’re in 2021 right now and I’m having conversations with folks about what about PI and like there’s a request for patience that just frankly is not fair. There’s also just, like, this dynamic that doesn’t get investigated. So when I talk about being at an impasse, it’s that PIs already don’t do API, that data disaggregation is actually just a request for data to catch up to the ways we already organize ourselves as communities API is a false promise and a site of erasure for many communities, not just Pacific Islanders, right? That Southeast Asian, South Asians, Filipinos as well get erased in these things, right? That even under API, we were still actually just being held responsible for a majority East Asian representation. And that it doesn’t investigate the inequitable dynamic that exists between and AA and PI so this impasse is that the work that we do in advocacy is in recognition of the fact that power and resources are still distributed and disseminated through API. So we have a critical conversation to have as a community because PIs are already not using PI, and it’s actually Asian Americans that use API and that it doesn’t feel very good, these accountability conversations of calling folks in of like, how can we be good relatives? How can we talk about, because there’s also like, you know, Asian American spaces aren’t talking about colonization, like the PI as a colonized people, all the forms of racism that we experience being facilitated through that means, and, you know, if we’re real, that some of our PI nations are colonized by Asian Americans, like not American, but like Asian nations, right? That there’s like some healing that needs to happen. And so this, I don’t know that it’s a critical issue so much as like a critical conversation that needs to occur in our communities that is inclusive of PIs. Cause I also know I come across folks who are like, I say API cause I was taught that that was inclusive. And I was like, I bet you a PI didn’t tell you that. So, yeah, you know, I think about that in the context of this episode, but there’s this other piece too of like, You know, my family and I had COVID back in August, and so that was its own, I don’t know that I say wake up call, because I, like, what’s the humble way to say, like, I’ve been awake? It was asking this question of, like, what facilitated our survival, right? And a lot of actually what came to me was around labor. Was around union organizing and those wins of like we survived because I got a livable wage. I have paid sick leave I have like health insurance I have all of these things that I’m really clear were won by unions were made possible by labor and they’re treated as privileges right or even like speaking English Like, all of these things that I was just like sitting with, like, oh, those are actually now shaping our demands of how we are going to move our advocacy work, or, you know, that we’re housed, all of these things where I was like, oh, these are actually, there’s not one critical issue, because the insidious nature of racism and poverty is that it could manifest itself in so many ways in our community that lead to premature death, and in that, like, Ruthie Wilson Gilmore way where she defines racism as the set of systems that lead to premature death. So that being like, oh, those are all the critical issues for me.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:43:12] We need to, we, we’re going to have to like come up with a syllabus for this episode, like to drop this [laughs] episode next week that has everyone cited all the articles and all the things listed so that we can like, yeah, I’m disseminating a syllabus with this episode. And I think that you were, you were right in that. First of all the disaggregation of data is something that is a theme that has come up on nearly every episode too in this podcast. It was another reason why, when Gabriel and I met, that was one of the first conversations we had because I have been very vocal in our caucus that there is some healing and reconciliation needs to happen. There is a reckoning that needs to happen. We need to deal with the anti blackness and et cetera, et cetera. In our caucus, right? And the fact that this caucus is meant to represent too many dang people and you try to squeeze us all together and make, like, all of our issues one issue, and it just does not work like that for all of the reasons that you said, but it doesn’t mean you said, how can we be good relatives? It doesn’t mean that moving forward, we can’t be good relatives and figure this out. I think you’re right. We’ve got to stop and have the conversation, before we can really move forward. And it’s probably gonna be a long conversation. It’s going to be a long conversation and one that happens continuously and in various spaces, but it definitely needs to happen moving forward aside from what you’ve already shared with us, what do you think it will take to increase the visibility of our communities and mobilize PI people around some of the critical issues that you’ve already talked about.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:45:08] So Estella, your question has me thinking, and the energy from this episode in particular has me fired up, if I’m keeping it real, that if we’re talking about visibility for our communities, obviously organizing is at the core of that, making sure that we lift up and create spaces for our people to come together and discover that collective wisdom within our own respective communities. But the fire that you all lit right now has me thinking that just being unapologetically and fearlessly courageous in the face of white supremacy culture within our own spaces, whether that’s in the organizations, institutions, businesses, all of the places that we exist. I’m recognizing actually in this moment that one of the things that Tavae said earlier about not being seen by white supremacy institutions is actually safer, which is also very true in the way that things manifest. But what I’m feeling right now is increasing visibility. We’re in a moment where, we’re in this moment where our ancestors have prepared us to do battle in the ways that we are in our generation to try to disrupt the colonizers in our own respective ways. So those are my thoughts.

Tavae Samuelu: [00:46:34] Well, you know, I think the part of your question that I’m grappling with is this visibility piece, right? Because there are a lot of ways where I feel like our community is actually hyper visible, right? Like we’ve got The Rock, we’ve got Jason Momoa, we’ve got like all of these like really visible figures in our community who are also like very loud about our culture. And so there’s this piece where I sit with is it that we need to be visible or is it like in this, man, I don’t want to cite Chimamanda Adichie because she’s like super TERFsy uh, and she had this Ted talk about like the danger of a single story and that actually, what, what troubles our visibility is the community is the singularity of our story here in the US, how there’s like one thing that people get to know about. And I think, and maybe it’s better to think about Stuart Hall and how he talks about there’s no such thing as good or bad representation, because good and bad is constantly changing, right? Even the word bad in some contexts means good. In that sense, that actually what you’re looking for as a community is a multitude of representation so that nothing becomes the single story of your visibility. Of how you’re seen and understood, right? That that’s also like, what white supremacy gets that white people get to be poor and wealthy. They get to be teachers and doctors and criminals, right? And even when they’re criminal, we make it Godfather and like, glorify that criminality and so I think that’s the part of our community is of wanting that to of, like, how do we get to see ourselves everywhere so that there isn’t a limitation around how we mobilize. I also think, and I think this is always the conversation around representation of, like, how do I feel represented? Like you know, I never felt, Tulsi Gabbard is a Samoan woman, and I never felt represented by her like, that’s not my people. And so, even that representation piece of, and I’ve stated this before, of like, yo, if it’s not pro Black and pro Indigenous and anti racist, it doesn’t represent me. Like, those are not my people.

Like, I’m not throwing down with people who aren’t trying to get free. And so if I’m thinking about representation to invisibility, like I want our folks to be exposed and see as many examples of freedom as possible. That the other thing about young people and like language and all this stuff is young people already, really anyone like has a sense of what is not fair or doesn’t feel right. That our young people actually, and many of us as marginalized communities, are experts in oppression. Like, you don’t need to teach us what up looks like, because we’ve experienced it our whole lives. And so what does it mean to develop and invest in and build a whole pipeline and lineage of folks who are experts in liberation, who have so deeply exercised that muscle that they don’t know anything else, that they only know how to be free. Like, I think that’s the part where I’m thinking about, like, that’s the kind of visibility I want to see. That’s the kind of that I hope that our young people, that I, like, not just our young people, that I also need. And that I also am seeking so much, especially during this pandemic and always as somebody who struggles with anxiety and depression is, you know, on that Miriam Kaba, like hope is a discipline. I am internalizing more and more what that means. You to have to exercise hope as a discipline, as a muscle that needs to grow. I mean, I’ll share this with you all, like, thank you Stella for saying happy birthday. It is, just probably one of the most difficult birthdays I’ve ever had. It is hard to age during a pandemic. In particular, like, because it’s so macabre right now. But also because I’ve been wading through a lot of survivor’s guilt. For the last couple of months, I’m just kind of like wondering why other people didn’t make it and I did and so I have like a systemic analysis of all the privileges that kept me alive, but I’m still sitting here feeling guilty about making it or about surviving COVID thus far. And then sitting on a birthday, then having, like, every wish just felt really warm, but also sharp. And having to, like, say thank you to every single one to, like, exercise a muscle of gratitude. Like, try to replace some of that guilt with gratitude. But all that to say that I think this is also the direction that EPIC is going in, that like, when I think about these critical issues that it’s like translating this thought experiment into tangible action around stuff. I’m sorry, I turned it off, I just completely lost you all.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:51:53] No, I’m, I am with you, I was, y’all, like, I’m. dizzy from just shaking my head. Yes, I legit got lightheaded a second ago. Like, I was just shaking my head. What you just said, I was just like, isn’t that the dream? Like, isn’t that what we were supposed to be fighting for all those years ago and still today? A whole generation of people who don’t know what it is to experience oppression. Like, that’s the dream. Like, that’s the dream. That, that is what we want and so what you were saying about visibility, you know, I’m, I constantly am struggling, like, with, I think, yeah, The Rock is there, but like, he’s a wrestler, he’s a movie star, you know what I mean? Like, it’s always that same story. And while I appreciate him, I do, because being Black and being someone I always felt like a damn unicorn and The Rock was the only one who was there, who existed other than me and my brothers. And so I do appreciate him and the other celebrities or stars that we have to look to. But like you said, I want where we get to be. Any and everything and all of those things all at the same time.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:53:19] I’m not sure if this makes it to the episode, but I have to express my gratitude for you just coming through and blazing this whole conversation. And really, I feel like there’s just so much that I can’t wait to. process and think through. I feel like the impact in this conversation alone is just gonna reverberate not only in my experience, but also our listeners that are tuning in. So Tavae, thank you so much.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:53:47] Recovering perfectionist, that phrase. I’m walking away with it. Actually, it just posted something on like characteristics of white supremacy and the ways in which I was thinking about the ways in which as a theater educator, I have been guilty of perpetuating characteristics of white supremacy because it’s so much a part of the way theater folk we do things. And so I was thinking like, but no wait, theater folk and artists, we also have the skills to dismantle white supremacy. It’s also in the way that we do things so we do know better and when we know better we should do better so that recovering perfectionist is like in me and it also speaks to something that Gabriel has shared earlier about, you know, assimilation and being a first gen and that very typical immigrant story or child of immigrants like you’re going to go to school get straight A’s and essay like that show. And then your only options are doctor and lawyer. And don’t come talk to me about anything else. So, you know, that that’s definitely always been a part of. Me too, is it being in the diaspora and first gen American born, and always feeling like whatever I’ve done is not good enough. And, but then I’m like, but in whose eyes, whose eyes is it not good enough? And if it’s in mine, then I need to sit with that and work past that. So recovering perfectionist, that’s where I’m at.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:55:14] My favorite line from today was aspiring radical elder. I’m holding on to that one. I was feeling that.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:55:22] I wrote that one down too. Fa’a fatai te le lava. Thank you for listening.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:55:28] Salamat. Thank you for listening.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:55:29] We want to thank our special guest Tavae, one more time for rapping with us tonight. We really appreciate you.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:55:36] Continental Shifts Podcast can be found on Podbean, Apple, Spotify, Google, and Stitcher.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:55:43] Be sure to like and subscribe on YouTube for archived footage and grab some merch on our site.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:55:48] Join our mailing list for updates at CONSHIFTSPodcast.com That’s C O N S H I F T S podcast dot com. Follow us at con underscore shifts on all social media platforms.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:56:06] Dope educators wayfinding the past, present, and future.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:56:10] Keep rocking with us, fam. We’re gonna make continental shifts through dialogue, with love, and together.

Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:56:16] Fa’afetai. Thanks again. Deuces.

Gabriel Tanglao: [00:56:19] Peace. One love.

Swati Rayasam: [00:56:20] Thanks so much for tuning into apex express and an extra special thank you to Gabe and Estella for allowing us to feature your incredible podcast. Like I said at the top, you can find other episodes of the ConShifts podcast on our site at kpfa dot org backslash programs, backslash apex express. Or even better, you can go to the ConShifts site to listen on Podbean or wherever podcasts can be found. And make sure to follow them to keep up with where they go next. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We think all of you listeners out there keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Miko Lee, along with Paige Chung, Jalena Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Kiki Rivera, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Cheryl Truong, and me, Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a great night.

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