Episode 56: GitHub’s Scott Densmore On The Copilot Revolution, Coding At The Speed Of Thought Mik + One: The Official Project To Product Podcast By Dr. Mik Kersten podcast

57:21

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Patrick Dubois. Often referred to as the Godfather of DevOps, Patrick shares his insights on the evolving landscape of DevOps and its intersection with generative AI. He discusses how the principles of DevOps are being applied to the rapidly changing world of AI, emphasizing the importance of testing, automation, and team structures in this new era. Patrick reflects on the lessons learned from past technology transformations and how they can inform current practices in integrating AI into business processes. Listen as Mik and Patrick as they outline actionable strategies for organizations to move from experimentation to the successful productization of AI solutions, underscoring the importance of collaboration and feedback in driving innovation. Key discussions include: The importance of adaptability in applying DevOps principles to generative AI. Understanding the integration of generative AI requires a shift in team structures and roles. Feedback and iterative testing are crucial for successfully deploying generative AI applications. DevOps practitioners have an innate advantage in managing the unpredictable nature of AI systems. Organizations must balance between innovative AI solutions and maintaining robust governance frameworks. The journey of integrating AI technologies can be accelerated by leveraging existing data architectures. Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on X: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: YouTube Reference: - "Every AI Engineer Deserves an AI Platform" https://youtu.be/p1AITmS6JrA?si=sEo2oArZqp1PRaHo - "Generative AI is Changing Our Jobs as Software and DevOps Engineers" https://youtu.be/qMLEI4ZaktE?si=N6aonwLH3bsDHtFp More Resources: Portfolio SAFe MarTech Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 60: Robin Yeman and Dr. Suzette Johnson on Implementing Lean, Agile, and DevOps Principles 52:02

28 weeks之前52:02

52:02

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One are industry luminaries Dr. Suzette Johnson and Robin Yeman. Suzette and Robin explore the integration of lean, agile, and digital methodologies into the increasingly complex realm of cyber-physical systems. They share compelling insights from their recently published book, "Industrial DevOps: Build Better Systems Faster." Suzette and Robin also stress the importance of integrating agile practices beyond software into hardware and the broader cyber-physical ecosystem, highlighting real-world examples and debunking common misconceptions. Listen as Mik, Suzette, and Robin reflect on the evolution from small team agility to expansive, multifunctional team cohesion. Key discussions include: Agile Beyond Software: Agile isn't limited to software; it can and should extend into hardware and cyber-physical systems for holistic efficiency. Importance of a Multi-Horizon Planning: Implementing multiple horizons of planning bridges the gap between short-term agility and long-term strategy. Role of Leadership: Leadership at all levels—especially in setting objectives and prioritizing work—plays a crucial role in the successful adoption of agile and DevOps practices. Data-Driven Decisions: Emphasizing the importance of using empirical data to constantly refine plans and reduce uncertainties. Continuous Learning and Growth Mindset: A perpetual state of learning and adaptation is necessary to keep pace with technological advancement and project complexities. Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe MarTech Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 59: McKinsey + Company’s Martin Harrysson & Megha Sinha on Maximizing Business Value Through Product Operating Models 58:02

32 weeks之前58:02

58:02

Martin Harryson & Megha Sinha Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One are Martin Harryson & Megha Sinha from McKinsey & Company. With a focus on their research which quantified the benefits of shifting from project to product models, Martin and Megha share insights on how these transformations can significantly enhance profitability and efficiency. As technology advances, the integration and upskilling necessary for these models are more critical than ever. Listen as Mik, Martin, and Megha explore the importance of cross-functional collaboration, the challenges in aligning incentives, and the necessity of robust organizational design. Key discussions include: The product operating model can significantly enhance return to shareholders and operating margins, with the top quartile companies outperforming others by substantial margins. Crucial elements like psychological safety and cross-functional collaboration are essential for the success of product operating models. Upskilling and capability building are vital, particularly in roles like product management, to ensure the effectiveness of these models. Generative AI can accelerate product development and streamline processes, but its success depends on addressing foundational constraints in the product operating model. Implementing these models requires a combination of high-level vision and detailed, specific actions demonstrated through smaller, focused initiatives. Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe MarTech Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community https://flowframework.org/ffc-podcast/martin-harrysson-and-megha-sinha/…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 58: Steve Mayner on Implementing Pragmatic AI in the Enterprise 1:09:28

38 weeks之前1:09:28

1:09:28

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Dr. Steve Mayner, a revered expert and coach in digital leadership, organizational change strategy, continuous learning culture, agile contracts, and SAFe practices within government contexts. Mik and Dr. Steve Mayner discuss the nuances of transformative leadership and its pivotal role in driving successful business agility and digital transformation efforts. They also examine the evolution and future of Lean-Agile practices tailored for the fast-evolving AI landscape. Listen as Mik and Dr. Steve Mayner explore the intersections of digital leadership, Agile transformation, and the emerging impacts of artificial intelligence in the digital age. Key discussions include: Transformational leadership is essential for fostering an innovative and adaptive organizational culture. AI's role in enhancing productivity and operational efficiency requires leaders to embrace these technologies and lead their integration effectively within their organizations. Successful digital transformation hinges not only on adopting new technologies but significantly on leadership that creates an environment of trust and drives organizational change. Continuous learning and leveraging AI tools can exponentially boost a leader's effectiveness, enabling informed decision-making in real-time. Adaptive leadership, coupled with a strong foundation in business acumen, is crucial for navigating the complexities of leading organizations in the digital age. Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe MarTech Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community For more information about Steve Mayner and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://flowframework.org/ffc-podcast/steve-mayner/…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 57: Gene Kim on "Wiring the Winning Organization," Unlocking High-Performance Organizations 56:00

43 weeks之前56:00

56:00

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is technology luminary Gene Kim. Gene Kim is an esteemed author and technology thought leader with over two decades of experience studying high-performing technology organizations. Mik and Gene look into the groundbreaking insights from Gene's latest book, "Wiring the Winning Organization," co-authored with Dr. Steven Spear. They navigate the pressing need for new organizational frameworks that bridge the gaps left by traditional models like Lean, Agile, and DevOps. They also analyze the core mechanisms vital to achieving optimal organizational performance, such as simplification and amplification. Listen as Mik and Gene explore the concept of ‘slowification’—the strategic slowdown for long-term gains—and provide practical advice on how technology leaders can implement these changes. Key discussions include: Understanding the critical layers involved in organizational performance: objects (code, patients), tools (IDEs, MRI machines), and social circuitry (team communication). Learn about the essential mechanisms—slowification, simplification, and amplification—that form the backbone of successful organizational design. Explore the impact of strong, clear feedback loops in optimizing organizational efficiency and uncovering hidden inefficiencies. Discover how partitioning complex systems into modular components can facilitate faster development and deployment cycles. Learn how Gene's book provides a framework that is understandable and actionable at all organizational levels, focusing on practical implementation. Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe The Unicorn Project by Gene Kim Wiring the Winning Organization by Gene Kim and Steven J. Spear MarTech Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community For more information about Gene Kim and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://flowframework.org/ffc-podcast/gene-kim-ep-57/…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 56: GitHub’s Scott Densmore on the Copilot Revolution, Coding at the Speed of Thought 51:51

1 year之前51:51

51:51

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Scott Densmore, VP of Engineering at GitHub, to discuss the future of connected work and the impact of GitHub Copilot on developer productivity. GitHub Copilot is an AI-powered tool that provides code completion and suggestions to developers, allowing them to write code faster and more efficiently. Scott shares the history of GitHub Copilot and how it has evolved to become a game-changer in the world of software development. He also talks about developer flow and happiness and explains how Copilot enhances these aspects by reducing toil and increasing productivity. Listen as Mik and Scott discuss the potential for customization and extensibility in Copilot, allowing developers to build their agents and their skills to further enhance their workflows. Key discussions include: GitHub Copilot is an AI-powered tool that provides code completion and suggestions to developers, increasing productivity and reducing toil. Copilot has been in development for several years, with a focus on fine-tuning the models and prompts to provide accurate and helpful suggestions across multiple programming languages. Studies have shown that developers using Copilot can complete tasks in significantly less time, leading to increased productivity and happiness. Customization is a key feature of Copilot, allowing developers to build models on top of their own code and improve the accuracy of suggestions. The introduction of chat functionality in Copilot allows developers to ask questions, get explanations of code, and even generate tests or refactorings. GitHub is working on an extensibility platform for Copilot to enhance their workflows and bring in expertise from various tools and services. Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on X: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1 , Part 2 MarTech Dave West - podcast episode Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 55: Professor Mohan Sawhney: Rethinking Product Management with AI 52:02

2 years之前52:02

52:02

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Professor Mohan Sawhney, Associate Dean of Digital Innovation and a Clinical Professor of Marketing at Northwestern University. Sawhney discusses the evolution and importance of product management as a discipline. He emphasizes the need for formal training and frameworks in product management and highlights the role of product managers as mini CEOs and customer advocates. Sawhney also explores the challenges and opportunities in implementing product management in different industries, including technology companies, B2B industrial companies, and service-based organizations. Listen as Mik and Sawhney explore the impact of generative AI on product management, and highlight its potential to enhance day-to-day tasks and improve efficiency and effectiveness Key discussions include: Understanding customer problems and exceeding customer needs The product manager’s crucial role as orchestrator, mini CEO, and customer advocate The discipline of product management The potential for growth and adoption in various industries Executive sponsorship and implementing organizational structure Expansion of product management beyond tech companies to B2B and services industries Rethinking structure, incentives, and process Exploring how to implement product management in organizations How Generative AI can improve persona development, wireframing, and roadmap optimization AI Product management and how it is redefining efficiency for the future Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1 , Part 2 MarTech Dave West - podcast episode Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 54: Dr. Pallab Chatterjee on Digital Transformation Waste 56:53

2 years之前56:53

56:53

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Pallab Chatterjee, a visionary entrepreneur and technology expert. Pallab is currently the chairman of 3Lines VC, a boutique VC firm specializing in investments in AI-focused companies in the US and India. Pallab shares his journey from running a research lab at Texas Instruments to becoming the CEO of IT Technologies and Symphony Retail AI. Mik and Pallab discuss the TI-84 and TI-86 calculators, which Pallab helped bring to market, and how they revolutionized the industry. They discuss the importance of understanding waste and its impact on organizational capacity and the role of finance in driving digital transformation. Mik and Pallab also discuss the importance of actionable visibility and the challenges of implementing predictive and prescriptive models in organizations. Key discussions include: The story behind the Ti 84 and Ti 86 calculators Understanding waste and its impact on organizational capacity The role of finance in driving digital transformation The role of AI and digital disruption in shaping the future of work Advice for organizations looking to embrace digital transformation The PDCA cycle and the importance of actionable visibility The challenges of implementing predictive and prescriptive models in organizations Understanding waste and rework cycles in software organizations The need for a metadata layer to operate on an enterprise relational database How organizations can avoid stagnation or falling behind The importance of customer-centricity and quantifying pain levels Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1 , Part 2 MarTech Dave West - podcast episode Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 53: George Kadifa on Generative AI 53:35

2 years之前53:35

53:35

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is technology visionary George Kadifa to discuss generative AI and its potential impact on the tech industry. George discusses how generative AI has changed the conversation with machines, allowing them to generate new content, code, images, and videos in a multi-modal fashion. This development is expected to be even bigger than all the previous tech transformations combined. George Kadifa has a long history of predicting tech trends and capitalizing on them. He believes that generative AI is set to revolutionize the scientific method by being able to comprehend complex situations with billions of parameters, which could have huge implications for medicine and other areas of science. Mik and George also discuss how the development of deep learning has led to a shift from workflow-based software to information-based software, with the ability to create predictive and generative capabilities. Key discussions include: The Impact of Generative AI on the Technology and Enterprise Landscape Generative AI and its Implications for the Creative Industry The Impact of AI on the Future of Technology and Workflows The Potential of AI to Transform Software Development The Benefits of Value Stream Management and AI for Improved Productivity The Power of Data in Generative AI Workflow Automation and Insight-Driven Analytics on Business Processes The Increase in Complexity of Software Development Interplay Between Cloud Vendors and AI Model Development The Future of Language Modeling and Information Protection Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode: https://www.planview.com/lp/mik-plus-one/ Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Join the Flow Framework Community…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 52: Mik Kersten on the 2023 Project to Product State of the Industry Report 54:24

2 years之前54:24

54:24

In this episode of Mik + One, we’re flipping the script! Debbie Konrad, an early Value Stream Management advocate, interviews Mik. The two discuss a new report, the 2023 Project to Product State of the Industry Report, that analyzed anonymized data from 2022 of 3600+ software delivery teams representing over 38,000 business product owners and engineers combined with 326 targeted survey respondents in 34 of the world’s leading enterprises. It revealed that five years into the shift from project to product, following the publication of Mik's seminal book on the subject, only 8 percent of sample have operationalized the product model. Debbie and Mik discuss how the report’s findings are timely and relevant, as technology leaders are under increasing pressure to match tech giants and unicorns on digital innovation and wrestle the competitive advantage from the hands of a few companies. In this episode, Mik shares how to shift the management approach in digital portfolios from a project to a product-based model. Debbie and Mik also address the importance of combining systems data with survey data in order to provide additional insights into the adoption curve of value stream management. Key discussions include: The 2023 Project to Product State of the Industry Report The seven dimensions of change required for a product operating model Product Management Maturity Insights from the 2021 State of Value Stream Management Report The Journey from Product Experimentation to Operationalization Survey Responses and System Data on Product Operating Model Transformations Autonomy and Dependencies for High Performance Teams The Benefits of Value Management for Software Development Teams Implementing Build and Run Teams for Software at Scale The Importance of Backlog Management and Prioritization in Product Management Creating an Effective Product Management Function: Strategies for Success Exploring the Benefits of Flow Metrics for Improved Efficiency and Time to Market Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.planview.com Additional Resources: Download the 2023 Project to Product State of the Industry Report and connect with Debbie Portfolio SAFe Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1 , Part 2 MarTech Dave West - podcast episode Learn more and join the Flow Framework Community here For more information on the 2023 Project to Product State of the Industry Report, go here: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/mik-kersten-interview…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 51: Carol Houle on Strategic Digital Transformations 41:35

2 years之前41:35

41:35

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Carol Houle, Senior Vice President and Global Head of Financial Services and Insurance at Atos. With over two decades of experience in building and renovating businesses seeking to focus on strategic digital transformations, Carol shares success stories and challenging lessons she has learned in her professional journey. Carol and Mik talk about the complexities of agile transformation, and the role that education can play in optimizing value streams. Mik and Carol also have a transformative discussion about how the shift from project to product is actually a shift of mindset, and for a shift of mindset to occur acknowledgment from a higher place within individuals, and fundamentally within the organization, is crucial. Key discussions include: Carol’s background and history in the industry Improving technology in the last decade What is agile transformation? How to measure improvement and maintain autonomy The need for shifting mindsets and education Special focus sessions for executives and how they can be utilized The value of servant leadership and empowerment Setting up systems that include feedback loops to create a sense of control Instrumentation of business value to connect to your business strategy Why digital transformation is the vehicle for building relationships Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com Additional Resources: Connect with Carol Portfolio SAFe Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1 , Part 2 MarTech Dave West - podcast episode Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts For more information on Carol Houle, please visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/carol-houle/…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 50: Former Ford CEO Mark Fields on the Value of a Unified Vision 47:30

2 years之前47:30

47:30

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Mark Fields, Senior Advisor to TPG Capital, a member of Planview's board of directors, and former CEO of Ford Motor Company. Mark has presided over three decades of strategic and digital transformations at global businesses and shares how he consistently succeeded with a focus on product. He discusses the value of possessing agility, a unified vision, and a rallying cry as a business to create a product that delivers more value and potentially diverts a company off more common value streams. In this episode, Mik and Mark also discuss drive-by-wire and how a point of view on what the future is, creates a demand for businesses to create organizational structure that can support strategy. Key discussions include: Early steps in Mark’s career Turning Mazda around in Japan Functional divides between business, technology, and operations Focusing on product is how you get customers Unifying vision and having a rallying cry in a business Turning products into platforms Diverting off common platforms to deliver customer missions ECUs in vehicles and the cost AWS and Azure bills for organizations Ford’s Mach-E Digital companies Mark is on the board of and how he is helping them thrive Learnings and agility Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com Additional Resources: Connect with Mark Portfolio SAFe Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1 , Part 2 MarTech Dave West - podcast episode Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts For more information about Mark Fields and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/mark-fields/…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 49: Brendan Hopper on Lessons Learned Shifting From Project to Product 50:13

2 years之前50:13

50:13

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Brendan Hopper, is the CIO for technology at Commonwealth Bank Group. He is responsible for ensuring the bank has a world leading IT engineering capability and is making the right technology investments and decisions. Brendan shares what drives his passion for driving innovation and flow at organizations and why technology should become an accelerator, not a disruptor for organizations and their customers. In this episode, Mik and Brendan also discuss org structure and the core principle that to be evolutionary means focusing on small increments and not just major redesigns. Key discussions include: Brendan’s professional journey in strategy and engineering How velocity can drive safety Building technology that real people delight in Creating a transformation network that is course correcting Lessons Brendan has learned in shifting from project to product The need for feedback cycles in transformation Understanding data that bottlenecks at the value stream level and the organization level. Restoring and repairing organizational design Why org structure has to continually change Moving teams between value streams when roadmapping what is next What Brendan is focused on today Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com Additional Resources: Connect with Brendan Portfolio SAFe Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1 , Part 2 MarTech Dave West - podcast episode Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts For more information about Brendan Hopper and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/brendan-hopper/…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 48: Steve Berez on How to Do Agile Right 48:52

3 years之前48:52

48:52

Joining Mik on this episode of Mik + One is Steve Berez, advisory partner at Bain & Company and co-author of Doing Agile Right, Transformation Without Chaos. In this episode, Mik and Steve discuss: Insights into Steve’s 30+ year journey developing Bain’s technology practice Real examples of implementing agile practices and how to do it right How to get buy-in from Finance teams and demonstrate the value of a capacity-based mindset Strategies organizations can take to realize Agile benefits more quickly How Doing Agile Right can improve the business technology dialogue Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com Additional Resources: Connect with Steve Doing Agile Right Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1 , Part 2 For more information about Steve Berez and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/steve-berez/…

Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 47: Razat Gaurav on Rebuilding the Future of the Enterprise and the Three Waves of Software Value Stream Optimization 57:37

3 years之前57:37